tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2993865619440350763.post6372140130032607177..comments2023-10-30T05:58:54.390-07:00Comments on Contra Gentes: Confused ArminiansSaint and Sinnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14166699860672840738noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2993865619440350763.post-87172451149634705942009-04-01T14:56:00.000-07:002009-04-01T14:56:00.000-07:00The problem identified by kangaroodort / Ben would...The problem identified by kangaroodort / Ben would, I think, come within the type of error called "illegitimate totality transfer", or transfering the total possible meanings of a word into every occurence of that word.<BR/><BR/>That is, each word (e.g. "all")has a range of meaning (a.k.a. semantic field). However, not every occurence of that word brings with it every meaning that the word may possibly have. A very obvious example would be the English word "grill" which has meanings that include "grill meat", "car grill" and "grill a suspect". To say that a sentence "the detective grilled the thief" includes some sense of cooking meat would be to commit the semantic fallacy of illegitimate totality transfer.<BR/><BR/>Applying it to the discussion above, it is not enough to establish that the meaning of "all" can included the meaning "all kinds of" as well as the meaning "every single exemplar of". One must establish the appropriate field of meaning in the context. To say that "all" in one book of the Bible means "all kinds of" and then simply import the meaning of "all kinds of" into the use of "all" in a different book of the Bible would be an illegitimate totality transfer--unless of course the meaning "all kinds of" could be established independently from the context of the use of "all" in the second book. And if the latter is the case, then what "all" meant in the first book is irrelevant.<BR/><BR/>Contra Gentes has not established that, in the context in question, "all" means "all kinds of". On the other hand, Picirilli and Kangaroodort have made a substantial argument that the context of "all" as used in that passage in John does indeed have only the meaning of "every exemplar of" or "exhaustively all", and not the other possible meanings of "all".<BR/><BR/>regards,<BR/>John C.T.John I.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10739187126377072292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2993865619440350763.post-77302726421478577102009-03-30T12:15:00.000-07:002009-03-30T12:15:00.000-07:00look, basically we all get that both interpretatio...look, basically we all get that both interpretations for the word "all" are sometimes correct in different contexts<BR/><BR/>"all" can and often means "every"<BR/><BR/>"all" can and often means only "every kind"<BR/><BR/>In the context of different Scripture passages, sometimes the apostle Paul is speaking in terms of Jews and Gentiles, and sometimes he is speaking in terms of man universally.<BR/><BR/><STRONG>The hundred dollar question is where in Scripture does it demand that "all" means "every" or that "all" only means "every kind"?</STRONG><BR/><BR/>As far as I can tell, the context of different passages demand both meanings from the word "all" in different verses. Some of these verses are talking about Christ's death, the offer of salvation, and the call to repent. Thus, my denial of the idea of Christ's "limited atonement" without necessarily agreeing to the rest of the implications of Arminianism.Persiflagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02369952596655284033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2993865619440350763.post-33849594721442887912009-02-17T08:09:00.000-08:002009-02-17T08:09:00.000-08:00S&S,Kangaroodort is my screne name so I’m the ...S&S,<BR/><BR/>Kangaroodort is my screne name so I’m the same guy who posted the Picirilli post.<BR/><BR/>I really don't have time for a long back and forth with you, but I thought I would address a few things.<BR/><BR/>The main point is that the context does not suggest the limitation you seem to think is required in the contested passages. You often seem to run to other passages where "all" or "world" is being used in order to cast doubt on these passages. Whenever, world or all is limited, that is rather obvious from the context. And that is exactly the point. The contexts of the contested passages do not support any such limitation.<BR/><BR/>Now you can say that, "Well that is just how they would understand it, and you are just an American, and so import your Americanizations onto the text" etc., etc., but you have not demonstrated that from the context, nor can you.<BR/><BR/>You wrote,<BR/><BR/><I>You're importing your 21st century American definition of "tribe" or "people groups" into the 1st century term "tribe." The 1st century term was more general than that.</I><BR/><BR/>So general as to include “all men without exception” perhaps?<BR/><BR/>And here is where you have really missed the point when I said that "all men without distinction" fits nicely into "all men without exception". The point is that if Christ died for all men without exception (as the texts suggest), then surely He died for all men without distinction as well. Correct? So the appeal to "all men without distinction" cannot be used to limit the text since that truth would still be included in "all men without exception." Do you see that? Appeals to "all men without distinction" or "all kinds of men" just don't help you since they do not give you the "some among all" that you want and need.<BR/><BR/>And let us assume that you claim "some among all" is the proper interp. (though it cannot be shown from context, nor from cultural considerations alone as explained above). How are you using "all" in the phrase "some among all"? Are you not using it in a universal sense? You are saying some men among all men without distinction. But how is that different from saying some men among all men without exception? You don't mean some among some, do you? So you are using “all” universally when you say "some among all". And that is how you are qualifying "all men without distinction" which is a qualification of "all men" in the text. So you are borrowing "all" directly from the text when you say "some among all" and by doing so inadvertently admit the universal use of "all" in the very text you try to limit! <BR/><BR/>So your little zoologist conversation is inapplicable and demonstrates “confusion” on your part, especially since you start with “all kinds” and try to extend it to “all everywhere”, which is the opposite of what I was saying, “all everywhere” includes “all kinds”- so it would be like a zoologist saying that all marine animals are contained in the ocean, and a Calvinist saying, “you mean all kinds of marine animals are found in the ocean?” and the zoologist, puzzled, responding, “No, I meant all marine animals without exception, but of course that would include every kind as well.”<BR/><BR/>Now, as for Picirilli, he was looking at the immediate context of the epistle and drawing conclusions based on the way the word is specifically being used there. Especially relevant is the use of “whole world” in 5:19. So the context of the epistle just supports the natural reading of the text that it is “not only us who are believers, but everyone else in the world as well”. But you go jumping to “world” in other contexts and then try to import those contexts into this text where it doesn’t belong. And this is the common and completely unjustified eisegetical error that is so common among Calvinists. And why do they do this? <I>Because the context of the contested passages do not limit all!</I><BR/><BR/>So what do you do? Borrow another context from somewhere else and pretend this is a valid hermeneutic. So yeah, Arminians like me are confused. We are confused as to how you think such tactics represent a valid method of interpretation, and we are confused as to how you think such arguments are suppose to be convincing.<BR/><BR/>My initial point regarding “tribes” was that when Calvinists suggest that tribes who are never reached with the gospel are full of reprobates and chide Arminians for claiming God wants to save all when considering these unreached tribes, that the Calvinist puts himself in the same boat when claiming that such passages mean “all kinds, tribes, groups” etc. <BR/><BR/>So I agree that we have the “same problem.” That was my point. So how do you solve the “problem”? Do you handle it like an Arminian, or do you abandon the “all tribes” argument? Or do you stop pointing to unreached tribesman as an indictment against Arminian soteriology? The choice is yours.<BR/><BR/>The Revelation passage poses no problem for Arminianism since it is both true that Christ died for the church and that He died for all. The particular fits in with the universal without any problem. It is just a matter of focus. As far as being “purchased” that is probably only appropriately used of believers since only believers actually benefit from the atonement (1 Tim. 4:10).<BR/><BR/>Much more could be said, but I am out of time for now. I hope that I have at least cleared up some “confusion”.<BR/><BR/>God Bless,<BR/>BenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2993865619440350763.post-75983704270548120802009-02-16T18:31:00.000-08:002009-02-16T18:31:00.000-08:00“Love Not The World” ”For the WHOLE world is under...“Love Not The World”<BR/> <BR/>”For the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one”(I John 5:19) <BR/> <BR/>“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world will pass away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of The Only True GOD will abide for ever.” (I John 2:15-17)<BR/> <BR/>“If you were of the world, the world would love it’s own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said unto you, the servant is not greater than his Master. If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept My saying, they will keep yours also.” (John 15:19-20)<BR/> <BR/>“Where do wars and fighting among you come from? Do they not come of your lusts that war in your members? You lust, and have not: you kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: you fight and war yet you have not, because you ask not. You ask, and receive not, because you ask amiss, that you may consume it upon your lusts. You adulterers and adulteresses, don’t you know that friendship with the world is to be at enmity with The Only True GOD? Therefore whoever will be a friend of the world is the enemy of The Only True GOD.” (James 4:1-4)<BR/> <BR/>“The world cannot hate you; but the world hates Me, because I testify that the works of this world are evil.” (John 7:7)” and “The Messiah gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of The Only True God, Our Father.”(Gal 1:4) <BR/> <BR/>The Messiah testified: “If the world hates you know that it hated Me before it hated you.”(John 5:18) Truly, Truly, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone: but if it die it brings forth much fruit. He that loves his life in this world shall lose it; and he that hates his life in this world shall have it unto life eternal.” (John 12:24-25)<BR/> <BR/>John testified: “Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hates you.” (I John 3:13) “ James testified, “Whoever would be a friend of this world is the enemy of GOD”(James 4:4)<BR/> <BR/>The “earth and it's life forms” are The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father of ALL! The “worldly” systems are the creation of, and under the dominion of “the god of this world”, he who is “the father of lies”, he who “has blinded the minds of those who believe not The Messiah”! All the nations of this world are under the dominion of, and serve, the evil one for he provides the fuel that feeds mankind’s “imag”ination, and mankind’s “imagination is destroying and perverting Creation(land, air, water, vegetation, creatures, Light, Truth, Life, Love, Peace, Faith, Simplicity, .etc.) ;-(<BR/> <BR/>Once again, the “earth and it's life forms” are The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father of ALL! The current “worldly” systems are the creation of, and under the dominion of “the god of this world”. <BR/> <BR/>Those who “love this world” all serve “the god of this world”, and play their part in the processes that seek to destroy The Creation of The Only True GOD. “And The Only True GOD will destroy them who destroy the earth.” (Rev 11:18c) <BR/> <BR/>Global warming, polluted air, land and waters, toxic wastes, sexual perversion, evil inventions of destruction, greed, hate, carnal warfare, dis-ease ,,,etc,,, are all destructive processes that have their root in “the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life”. <BR/> <BR/>The Truth Is Alive in those who have been born of The Spirit for “they no longer love this wicked, evil world and it’s things, nor do they love their own lives in this world”. <BR/> <BR/>They but seek and desire The Will of GOD, their Father and Creator, as they await their final transformation. “Corruptible to Incorruptible" ndeed and Truth! <BR/> <BR/>Now “the ground was cursed for Adam’s sake” because he “hearkened unto the woman”. <BR/> <BR/>Adam listened to a woman rather than obeying The Only True GOD. Yet because of Faithful Noah, The Only True GOD “no longer would curse the ground for man’s sake” because Noah obeyed The Only True GOD! (Genesis 8:21-22) <BR/> <BR/>And the Faithful today are exhorted to “love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.” <BR/> <BR/>Be not of those who deny and defy “The One GOD, Father of All”. Be not of those who are destroying and perverting HIS Creation(land, air, water, vegetation, creatures, Light, Truth, Life, Love, Peace, Hope, Mercy, Faith, .etc.)! <BR/> <BR/>“Set your affections on things above”. Desire heavenly, eternal things. Quit serving ‘time’ in the prison that is this world and take heed unto The Call of "The Only True GOD" to ”Come Out of her, MY people!”<BR/> <BR/>“Come out” from among those who are destroying and perverting Creation and be of those who follow The Messiah on “The Way to The Truth of The Life”.<BR/> <BR/>“Come out” of the worldly systems, which are the product of mankind’s “imag”ination, especially the systems of religion. "Pure religion and undefiled before GOD The Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself uncontaminated by the world." (James 1:27) <BR/> <BR/>Simply, all other religions are impure, defiled and of this wicked, evil world!<BR/> <BR/>Faith will not create a system of religion!<BR/> <BR/>Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this world and it's systems of religion, for "the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one" indeed and Truth.......<BR/> <BR/>Truth is never ending....... thedestructionoftheearth.wordpress.comelderchildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09827206019505093406noreply@blogger.com